eternal predesti-securety nation
The debate over calvinism vs. arminianism may never be settled, and i think God deisgned it thay way. My personal view on this has shifted over the years. I started out in my Christian walk as hard core "work out your salvation" and no one is eternally secure, but for most of my saved life. i figured the truth lay somewhere in the middle or something. Now that i think about it, i seldom even hear the topic arise anymore.
This blog is the product of thoughts that came to me while driving home form work one night, and although its been ages since i've posted anything here, i wanted to put these thoughts down in a place where they could be preserved for a while. It occurs to me that the function of this blogsite is manifold....to share ideas and stories with the public in order to invoke a dialogue , or to be a voice , but also for me its been a sort of archive, to store my writings and "memoirs" or whatever, and record them for any possible future refference to them i might need.
Two thoughts were coming to me lately, one is the nature of children before God. Its commonly accepted that children are the Lord's, until they reach a mysterious age of accountability. But is every child born a "good seed"? The other one is i was thinking and praying for two Christian people I know, that i consider to be "nominal Christians". As i was praying for them, i was telling the Lord to forgive me if i'm being judgmental in any way and acknowledging the fact that i do not see hearts as He does, and cannot always know exactly where a person stands with Him, spiritually. Yet i believe that as believers, we're "fruit inspectors" by commission, as we're to know what good fruit and bad fruit are in ourselves, we then ought also to be able to recognise those fruits in others. We look at Adolf Hitler and say he definitely wasn't saved when he died, and look at mother Theresa and say she was. But what leads us to those conclusions? isn't it the things they said, did, and stood for in their lives?...Then the statement many will make is, "well, by their fruits they were saved or not saved, yet only God knows the condition of their hearts in that moment of their last breath."
I suppose you could say that this blog is about the topic of salvation really. We know that scripture says its faith alone that saves, and through faith, belief causes confession to be made unto salvation. "if you belief in your heart that Jesus Christ is Lord you are saved". ok. and the fingers and tentacles of that topic begin to reach out too, when you Analise what the word "belief " is. Most would assert that "confession" alone does not save. And James will be brought up saying "faith without works is dead", knowing that of course faith is the root, and works are the fruit.....all of that. Its been hashed out before. I liked what i heard once, and i don't know if i have it exactly right, but it says salvation is a door that on one side says "whosoever will, come and be saved"....and the other side says "you were appointed heirs of salvation from the foundations of the world"...something like that. That door really encapsulates what i wanted to discuss here.
One reason i was even thinking those thoughts that night driving home, is in my daily thoughts with God i often consider the people around me, many nice and good people who do not have a living relationship with Christ. When i look at scripture, it sure seems to me that the saved will be a small percentage. And just as with many non-believers, something about that doesn't sit right with me. The opponents of God hold that complaint up all the time, saying God isn't fair and how can a loving God send so many to hell yada yada. I blogged a couple years ago about hell and my view on that, but i guess there's still something in my carnal nature maybe, in my flesh that rebels against that notion. I think it has to do with my sinfulness and pride really...it wants to reject that i am a sinner through and through. Its in the light of God's Holiness that we really see how sinful we are, and those without , living in the dark, will not come in to the light and have their deeds exposed, so they therefor have a skewed view of what is fair about God's dealings with us. It's not based on what His word says, but on the person's feelings. Nevertheless, i confess it still seems strange that eternal condemnation and torment await nice people and little old ladies i see in the world. That's one of those things you just have to say, "i don't get it, i just believe what the Bible says". And i really think the reason i don't get it, is because i do not usually have the understanding of these things that God has.
I've been trying to get myself , to see this issue more from the standpoint of how the Bible speaks on it, and less about how i feel. Which of course is what every Christian should do about every issue. And the more i do that, gradually i gain a better understanding. I'm going to insert here many Bible passages and verses that have been coming to mind, not because i'm trying to proof text the Bible and cherry pick its verses and make it back what i believe. Sadly , i think that goes on a lot with Christian writers. But honestly it will just be me writing what i have been thinking, and it will show how i arrive at my conclusions, and reveal the process of how i'm learning to think about these controversial topics to form my personal views on them. the Bible says Christians walk in the Spirit, grow in the Lord, and in the process have their way of thinking transformed. I believe the main way that happens is through His word. I've always believed that. God has said not to worry about what you will say when you are questioned for your faith and threatened because of it, and likewise i think remembrance of Bible verses at precisely the right time and way we need them in our lives today, works the same way. It's truly one of the ways the Bible becomes alive for the believer.
Children are special to God, Jesus brought it to light in the gospels paying attention to them and using His encounter with them to teach His disciples about God's relationship with us. its clear all throughout the Bible that we're to understand our relationship with God, in terms of Earthly children and parents. I try and keep in mind always, that everything in this world and in nature, is a reflection, example, illustration and picture of God and of heaven. I don't believe really that there are any "children" in heaven as such. Heaven is not like here. God has sought to use things of the Earth that we know, to illustrate things about heaven He wants us to know. As Moses was shown the throne room, and told to make everything for the tabernacle according to that picture, we too are told to think of the Earthly marriage covenant between man and woman, as a picture of Christ and the church...the communion elements and passover dinner represent the sacrificial Lamb of God from both sides of the new covenant, and so on. In short, life on Earth, is one big picture book of heaven to learn about it with, if it be that God has given us the understanding to do so. The study of Jesus saying that His Kingdom is made up of children, and that we need to be that way to enter it, is a fascinating one. But does that infer that all children on Earth are saved?...I'm not going to suggest to you that they aren't, or argue that issue .I realise that's sensitive territory and pretty much everyone believes that no child will be eternally condemned. But when you go to heaven, do you have an age distinction there?..aren't you a Spirit as Jesus is, and the demographics of personhood no longer apply, no male of female, no age?....Just something to keep in mind as you ponder the question of salvation of children. When Christians tell me they have always known God, my eye twitches slightly. not because i doubt their word, but because i question whether they ever really had a moment of surrender to Jesus....according to John 3, second birth is required. David said in Psalm 51:5 that he was born in sin, and shaped in iniquity. Children were slain by God in the Bible, not only the heathen, but God's people's kids too.
The salvation of children is related to my thoughts on eternal security because i think i'm beginning to see in scripture more evidence of "predestination" if you want to put it that way. A more messy discussion than even once saved always saved. People don't like that one because they think it implies that if you're destined to be or not be saved, then what good is the gospel message to you? why do you need it? I'm not going there right now either, only for the sake of not turning a blog into a book. anyhoo if we're born with a blueprint for eternal life or eternal death, then even as a child, there could be that terrible sentence in them. It's just i wasn't willing at first to see that side of it, but many things in scripture cannot be ignored. In Matthew 13 Jesus taught about the wheat and tares growing together , indistinguishable to us, but one day God would divide them at the judgment. Paul describes another concept that was strong for me that night along with the 2 sided door, in Galatians 4:1-3. there he says the "heir" is brought up under tutors and governors the same way as the servants in the house. a picture of the elect in the world , being subject to the same rain showers the heathen take cover from. We are the heirs. Those of us who know and love Jesus. We live and grow in the world the same as those who don't know Him, yet from birth, He knows us, His sheep. From the womb the heirs have His mark on them. By virtue of God's foreknowledge we are in a sense "predestined" by Him, and make no mistake the Bible puts in those exact terms. (Romans 8:29,30). Yet i would be foolish to shrug off my responsibility to seek the forgiveness of God, because of Him knowing my eternal fate before i know it, or worse yet think my calling gives me somehow a licence to sin because I'm locked in. I dono, Jesus told the Pharisees and Jews in the gospel of John that they would not hear His words and believe them, because they were not His. Obviously being God He knew, but from His standpoint those Jews were predestined to judgment, not from our perspective. And if that's how it works with the Pharisees, then it works that way with children.
So what's the point? for the unbeliever, all of this makes no difference i suppose, but I'm thinking that as Christians we need to understand a better way to evaluate the spiritual condition of both ourselves, and even other people . For our own good, for the vital reason that if we're faced with the stark knowledge of whether someone is either on this side or on the other side, (and granted its not always for us to know), we'll be passionate in our dealings. The dealings of ourselves before God, and of our responsibility to share the gospel message of Christ with the lost. If we are unclear about where God draws the line in terms of what He expects from us, then we ought to be vigilant in our study of scripture and make sure we have a grounded base to support that knowledge. If we're foggy about who needs to hear and who doesn't, than we're less likely to pass along what we know with others. It leads to dangerous complacency. There are 4 types of people in the world. 1- those who love God, 2 -those who are antagonistic, or indifferent to God, 3 - the prodigal sons of God who are looking like tares growing together with them, until they awaken from their trance and come home to God and, 4- the MANY , who stand before Jesus at the end saying "Lord Lord", thinking they knew Him but get rejected by Him.
It's in the Heavenly deck of cards, and no one down here really knows until they're played. But for me personally, it's one less dart the devil can throw at me when i don't have to ponder if i'm really His, if i will ever fall away, and if i have to continue to struggle with trying to figure out where the line is drawn, and who is on this or that side of it. Certain of us are just His sheep. Some staying in the fold, some wandering off to be found later,....some needing to wake up and realise they are lost. It gives me peace...assures me, that most will not hear the message, and i don't have to let satan condemn me that i didn't share it right, or be a good enough witness. only those the Father draws, will come. I don't have any profound ending to all of this...guess it's just me airing my thoughts.
This blog is the product of thoughts that came to me while driving home form work one night, and although its been ages since i've posted anything here, i wanted to put these thoughts down in a place where they could be preserved for a while. It occurs to me that the function of this blogsite is manifold....to share ideas and stories with the public in order to invoke a dialogue , or to be a voice , but also for me its been a sort of archive, to store my writings and "memoirs" or whatever, and record them for any possible future refference to them i might need.
Two thoughts were coming to me lately, one is the nature of children before God. Its commonly accepted that children are the Lord's, until they reach a mysterious age of accountability. But is every child born a "good seed"? The other one is i was thinking and praying for two Christian people I know, that i consider to be "nominal Christians". As i was praying for them, i was telling the Lord to forgive me if i'm being judgmental in any way and acknowledging the fact that i do not see hearts as He does, and cannot always know exactly where a person stands with Him, spiritually. Yet i believe that as believers, we're "fruit inspectors" by commission, as we're to know what good fruit and bad fruit are in ourselves, we then ought also to be able to recognise those fruits in others. We look at Adolf Hitler and say he definitely wasn't saved when he died, and look at mother Theresa and say she was. But what leads us to those conclusions? isn't it the things they said, did, and stood for in their lives?...Then the statement many will make is, "well, by their fruits they were saved or not saved, yet only God knows the condition of their hearts in that moment of their last breath."
I suppose you could say that this blog is about the topic of salvation really. We know that scripture says its faith alone that saves, and through faith, belief causes confession to be made unto salvation. "if you belief in your heart that Jesus Christ is Lord you are saved". ok. and the fingers and tentacles of that topic begin to reach out too, when you Analise what the word "belief " is. Most would assert that "confession" alone does not save. And James will be brought up saying "faith without works is dead", knowing that of course faith is the root, and works are the fruit.....all of that. Its been hashed out before. I liked what i heard once, and i don't know if i have it exactly right, but it says salvation is a door that on one side says "whosoever will, come and be saved"....and the other side says "you were appointed heirs of salvation from the foundations of the world"...something like that. That door really encapsulates what i wanted to discuss here.
One reason i was even thinking those thoughts that night driving home, is in my daily thoughts with God i often consider the people around me, many nice and good people who do not have a living relationship with Christ. When i look at scripture, it sure seems to me that the saved will be a small percentage. And just as with many non-believers, something about that doesn't sit right with me. The opponents of God hold that complaint up all the time, saying God isn't fair and how can a loving God send so many to hell yada yada. I blogged a couple years ago about hell and my view on that, but i guess there's still something in my carnal nature maybe, in my flesh that rebels against that notion. I think it has to do with my sinfulness and pride really...it wants to reject that i am a sinner through and through. Its in the light of God's Holiness that we really see how sinful we are, and those without , living in the dark, will not come in to the light and have their deeds exposed, so they therefor have a skewed view of what is fair about God's dealings with us. It's not based on what His word says, but on the person's feelings. Nevertheless, i confess it still seems strange that eternal condemnation and torment await nice people and little old ladies i see in the world. That's one of those things you just have to say, "i don't get it, i just believe what the Bible says". And i really think the reason i don't get it, is because i do not usually have the understanding of these things that God has.
I've been trying to get myself , to see this issue more from the standpoint of how the Bible speaks on it, and less about how i feel. Which of course is what every Christian should do about every issue. And the more i do that, gradually i gain a better understanding. I'm going to insert here many Bible passages and verses that have been coming to mind, not because i'm trying to proof text the Bible and cherry pick its verses and make it back what i believe. Sadly , i think that goes on a lot with Christian writers. But honestly it will just be me writing what i have been thinking, and it will show how i arrive at my conclusions, and reveal the process of how i'm learning to think about these controversial topics to form my personal views on them. the Bible says Christians walk in the Spirit, grow in the Lord, and in the process have their way of thinking transformed. I believe the main way that happens is through His word. I've always believed that. God has said not to worry about what you will say when you are questioned for your faith and threatened because of it, and likewise i think remembrance of Bible verses at precisely the right time and way we need them in our lives today, works the same way. It's truly one of the ways the Bible becomes alive for the believer.
Children are special to God, Jesus brought it to light in the gospels paying attention to them and using His encounter with them to teach His disciples about God's relationship with us. its clear all throughout the Bible that we're to understand our relationship with God, in terms of Earthly children and parents. I try and keep in mind always, that everything in this world and in nature, is a reflection, example, illustration and picture of God and of heaven. I don't believe really that there are any "children" in heaven as such. Heaven is not like here. God has sought to use things of the Earth that we know, to illustrate things about heaven He wants us to know. As Moses was shown the throne room, and told to make everything for the tabernacle according to that picture, we too are told to think of the Earthly marriage covenant between man and woman, as a picture of Christ and the church...the communion elements and passover dinner represent the sacrificial Lamb of God from both sides of the new covenant, and so on. In short, life on Earth, is one big picture book of heaven to learn about it with, if it be that God has given us the understanding to do so. The study of Jesus saying that His Kingdom is made up of children, and that we need to be that way to enter it, is a fascinating one. But does that infer that all children on Earth are saved?...I'm not going to suggest to you that they aren't, or argue that issue .I realise that's sensitive territory and pretty much everyone believes that no child will be eternally condemned. But when you go to heaven, do you have an age distinction there?..aren't you a Spirit as Jesus is, and the demographics of personhood no longer apply, no male of female, no age?....Just something to keep in mind as you ponder the question of salvation of children. When Christians tell me they have always known God, my eye twitches slightly. not because i doubt their word, but because i question whether they ever really had a moment of surrender to Jesus....according to John 3, second birth is required. David said in Psalm 51:5 that he was born in sin, and shaped in iniquity. Children were slain by God in the Bible, not only the heathen, but God's people's kids too.
The salvation of children is related to my thoughts on eternal security because i think i'm beginning to see in scripture more evidence of "predestination" if you want to put it that way. A more messy discussion than even once saved always saved. People don't like that one because they think it implies that if you're destined to be or not be saved, then what good is the gospel message to you? why do you need it? I'm not going there right now either, only for the sake of not turning a blog into a book. anyhoo if we're born with a blueprint for eternal life or eternal death, then even as a child, there could be that terrible sentence in them. It's just i wasn't willing at first to see that side of it, but many things in scripture cannot be ignored. In Matthew 13 Jesus taught about the wheat and tares growing together , indistinguishable to us, but one day God would divide them at the judgment. Paul describes another concept that was strong for me that night along with the 2 sided door, in Galatians 4:1-3. there he says the "heir" is brought up under tutors and governors the same way as the servants in the house. a picture of the elect in the world , being subject to the same rain showers the heathen take cover from. We are the heirs. Those of us who know and love Jesus. We live and grow in the world the same as those who don't know Him, yet from birth, He knows us, His sheep. From the womb the heirs have His mark on them. By virtue of God's foreknowledge we are in a sense "predestined" by Him, and make no mistake the Bible puts in those exact terms. (Romans 8:29,30). Yet i would be foolish to shrug off my responsibility to seek the forgiveness of God, because of Him knowing my eternal fate before i know it, or worse yet think my calling gives me somehow a licence to sin because I'm locked in. I dono, Jesus told the Pharisees and Jews in the gospel of John that they would not hear His words and believe them, because they were not His. Obviously being God He knew, but from His standpoint those Jews were predestined to judgment, not from our perspective. And if that's how it works with the Pharisees, then it works that way with children.
So what's the point? for the unbeliever, all of this makes no difference i suppose, but I'm thinking that as Christians we need to understand a better way to evaluate the spiritual condition of both ourselves, and even other people . For our own good, for the vital reason that if we're faced with the stark knowledge of whether someone is either on this side or on the other side, (and granted its not always for us to know), we'll be passionate in our dealings. The dealings of ourselves before God, and of our responsibility to share the gospel message of Christ with the lost. If we are unclear about where God draws the line in terms of what He expects from us, then we ought to be vigilant in our study of scripture and make sure we have a grounded base to support that knowledge. If we're foggy about who needs to hear and who doesn't, than we're less likely to pass along what we know with others. It leads to dangerous complacency. There are 4 types of people in the world. 1- those who love God, 2 -those who are antagonistic, or indifferent to God, 3 - the prodigal sons of God who are looking like tares growing together with them, until they awaken from their trance and come home to God and, 4- the MANY , who stand before Jesus at the end saying "Lord Lord", thinking they knew Him but get rejected by Him.
It's in the Heavenly deck of cards, and no one down here really knows until they're played. But for me personally, it's one less dart the devil can throw at me when i don't have to ponder if i'm really His, if i will ever fall away, and if i have to continue to struggle with trying to figure out where the line is drawn, and who is on this or that side of it. Certain of us are just His sheep. Some staying in the fold, some wandering off to be found later,....some needing to wake up and realise they are lost. It gives me peace...assures me, that most will not hear the message, and i don't have to let satan condemn me that i didn't share it right, or be a good enough witness. only those the Father draws, will come. I don't have any profound ending to all of this...guess it's just me airing my thoughts.
posted by Shiloh | December 11, 2012
|
2 Comments
